The Ellen MacArthur Foundation Podcast series Ep 101: The Circular Economy and Reuse
Excerpt from Podcast 101, published on 21 November 2022 by the Ellen MacArthur Foundation
Colin 13:04
My next guest is Nitesh Magdani. As an architect, Nitesh has worked across design, construction and operation of the built environment for more than 20 years. He is now the founder of Net Positive Solutions, where among other things, he helps clients to understand the value of reuse. I started this conversation by asking Nitesh what value reuse has in the built environment?
Nitesh 13:28
Currently, not that much. I'd say that business as usual for a lot of clients is based around getting the quickest value. So short term gains. And often when we're working with clients, we can see that anything other than what the current process is, is difficult because we've got to then evaluate that based on a longer term agenda. So you know, we're working with with clients at the moment let's say, Enfield Council for Meridian Water, a really interesting set of clients, because they have really strong ambitions about reuse. So we're trying to change the mentality all the way through the design, construction, procurement construction process to factor in how can we get more value by reusing components, rather than just sending materials to landfill for recycling rather, which is the business as usual. And we're having to quantify that in a way that they understand. And it is all about, you know, the current rate of certain materials, if it goes to scrap will be x. How can we give you more value by upgrading that reuse hierarchy? To say, actually, that those materials can be reused again, and you'll get a better rate of return.
Colin 14:58
Why might they have reservations about reuse as things stand?
Nitesh 15:03
Probably because it's slower. Generally, you're having to take a stance on not just what you're doing with the materials now, but actually think about in two years time, we might be able to use those materials again. And unless you have that direct match in terms of supply and demand, we do tend to find that people don't really have the foresight to think ahead, think ahead, actually, the value of steel, let's say, today might be x. But in two years time, it might be x plus 20%. Whereas we don't normally think that way. And then there's the whole certification, warranties, and all the other things that you generally don't have to think about, that we're having to now sort of tick all these boxes to say, Okay, I know you've got concerns about the reuse of this material, because we don't have the certification. But we can test it, we can test those products, and it's just not business as usual. So we are finding that we're having to go through all of these hoops to ensure that designers feel comfortable using those materials again, that they're fit for purpose, because otherwise, they'll just take a material off the shelf, knowing that it has that certification. So it's just additional work that we're sort of filling the gap with all of these parties.
Colin 16:32
So it sounds like there needs to be regulation that goes hand in hand with a mindset shift from your clients.
Nitesh 16:40
Yeah, and I suppose the problem currently is that there isn't regulation. So we're not, we're not bound to use products or, you know, there's no, there's no manufacturer responsibility currently in the UK for reusing materials. So if that were to change, I think that would be a major step change in the way that we come across different proposals, different methodologies for viewing materials, current materials as an asset, which we don't now.
Colin 17:16
So you've talked about the value for your clients, what you haven't mentioned so far, are the environmental benefits of reuse. Is that ever a part of your argument?
Nitesh 17:27
It is. And it's fair to say that if you only talk about the environmental benefits, from my experience, you don't get very far. So clients generally, they like the idea of saving embodied carbon, or lowering whole life carbon, whole life costs. But when you take that, as a financial argument, it tends to go further. Because if you can say I've increased the asset value of this building or these buildings, because we've done X, Y and Z, and it's reduced, you know, so many tonnes of carbon, great, but on its own, I don't think it really stacks up. You know, for the ABN AMRO project, reuse certain elements from other buildings, so Philips headquarters in Eindhoven, their facade was reused as internal partitions, they also managed to use fire hose reels, sports hall flooring, you know, for the flooring in the, in the sort of the main office space. And apart from that, there's, you know, on a on a wider scale, there's reuse of a whole building. So using an old VW showroom, in the outskirts of Amsterdam, again, by Royal BAM Group, to become an office building. So sort of repurposing, you know, when you think of that value, retention hierarchy, you know, you want to ideally keep materials in the same form that they're in, rather than dismantling it. And then using some of the products it's much better, financially, environmentally, and socially, to, to maintain that, the whole ecosystem, the whole structure, the whole building fabric, but then to put a different use in it. And that's, that's what the team did there.
Colin 19:21
Of course, it's no surprise that businesses love making savings. But sometimes those savings or opportunities are not immediately apparent to clients, or the number of additional actors involved and time delay a much more significant influence. What I take away from the conversation with Nitesh is how much more complicated reuse in the built environment tends to be compared to, say, packaging reuse setups.
Colin 19:43
Now I want you all to picture what we call the butterfly diagram. Reuse sits proudly on the diagram in one of the inner loops and the closer the loop is to the user, the more value the loop tends to hold. That's certainly the case with reuse. By avoiding remaking a product there are significant material, energy, labour and carbon savings to be made. Now if you want examples and more research into the matter, you can download our reuse booklet from the link in the show notes. It's clear that reuse has a role to play in the application of a circular economy. With more and more business models and products being geared towards reuse, I cannot help but wonder what the world of reuse will look like in the years to come.
https://ellenmacarthurfoundation.org/podcasts/ep-101-the-circular-economy-and-reuse